Have We Had This Discussion : What Makes A Wagon?

"Lets Just Drive" (lets-just-drive) 03/03/2014 at 21:05 • Filed to: None

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We probably have. I mean, I'm pretty sure it's the sort of thing we'd end up discussing with the regularity with which my wife and discuss the issue of toilet seats; up or down?! And, truthfully, it's about as productive a discussion as same. That said, let's have at it.

What makes a wagon?

Well, in my opinion it's pretty simple; a wagon needs to have four doors and a hatch. A car with two doors and a wagon-ass is either a shooting brake or a hatchback (with the latter typically being relegated to the land of FWD while the former clings to that RWD heritage). But wait, am I saying that a Mazda Protege 5 is a wagon? Is a Subaru Outback a wagon? Yes and no; the Subie yes, the Mazda no. Why? Because, and this is just my opinion, size matters.

Remember when we used to use terms like 'compact' and 'economy' to describe cars? It's kind of like that, if you ask me. A wagon should be obvious, you should only have to look at the car to know it's a wagon; maybe you can't describe why it's a wagon, but you know it, you feel it. It's not unlike Raph was saying on Afterdrive - you trust your impressions of what a car is, be it super, hatch, sedan or coupe or whatever the hell else is out there. That's how I feel about wagons.

When you look at a wagon, it should be obvious and you should know, "That's a wagon." There shouldn't, if you ask me, be any hesitation and if there is, it's not. Is a five door hatch-back a wagon? No, because it's a five door hatch back. Get what I'm getting at?

In my mind, a wagon is designed and marketed with intent - that is, it has been built along the ideology of wagonism (wagoness?) and marketed as such. That in and of itself allows real wagons a level of exclusivity that also-wagon's just cannot claim.

In my mind, there is a clear difference between a wagon and a vehicle which has attributes of a wagon in the same way that there is a clear difference between super-cars and those cars which posses a few super attributes. Thus, when I see WRX hatches with wagon mafia stickers on the back I feel a pang of outrage because, if you ask me, many of those cars (WRX included) have their own characteristics which, to my mind, should be embraced and highlighted, not diluted with some over ambitious attempt to be an also-wagon.

There's nothing wrong with owning an also-wagon, as far as I'm concerned, however; when the owner of said vehicle tries to camp with real wagons, tries to hang with the cool kids, it's just an obvious attempt to try and claim as many descriptors as possible, "Mine is a shooting brake hot hatch wagon with AWD so it's also a truck..." And that does a disservice to the car and the owner.

Further, when the marketing department gets involved and try to spread a product line across as many demographics as possible, it's pretty obvious to me that it's not a real wagon, though it may be an also-wagon.

This is, at least, to my mind what makes a wagon and what disqualifies a car from being.

What of it, Oppo? Tell me how wrong I am, how much you agree, or what color underpants I should wear to bed tonight.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:06

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Yes...

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Lets Just Drive > The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 03/03/2014 at 21:08

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The thing of it is, I'm pretty uninterested in what the FP commentariat has to say and I'm way more interested in what Opponauts think, as we tend to be able to discuss things better on Oppo without the flaming trolls which proliferate on the FP. That's all.

Big Bubba Ray > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:09

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Inb4 someone says this is a wagon. Personally, I don't think it is. To me it's a hatch. This is a wagon.

Lets Just Drive > Big Bubba Ray 03/03/2014 at 21:11

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I happen to agree.

Brian Silvestro > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:12

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Isn't there like a whole chart on this? Oh right, someone already left a comment with it.

Big Bubba Ray > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:12

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Thank you! When the famous wagon debate was posted on the FP, everyone was calling the Impreza hatch a wagon. I don't believe it is, but I'm sure there's an opponaut or two out there who would disagree.

Lets Just Drive > Big Bubba Ray 03/03/2014 at 21:17

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I could build a porch and call it a bicycle. It's mine, I built it and therefore I can call it whatever I want...

... but that doesn't make it true.

Automakers are in the same boat, if you ask me. They can build a 2+2 sports coupe and call it an SUV, but that doesn't make it so. With the blurring (I'd say diluting) of the various demographics, these discussions are bound to be pretty popular because the lines between those groups are losing their distinction.

Is a CUV a wagon? Is an SUV a truck? Automakers will say yes, where they think it'll make a buck and that is wicked common in the appliance-car market. A salesman will try to sell a person on a Honda Venza as a wagon, a SUV and a CUV and even a sports car because that's how it's been marketed despite the fact that it's really none of these things.

That's where we, the enthusiast crowd come in (imho) as we're far less willing to accept the vague definitions which automakers are so inclined to employ.

The Opponaut formerly known as MattP123 > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:19

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Well for what it's worth, I think a wagon needs 4 doors, a rear hatch/window & tailgate/side swinging door, and a certain width to height to width ratio of the cargo area. The height to width ratio is for the purpose of weeding out crossovers. Cause there's cars like the Venza which are kinda vague. Basically, I know it when I see it and call it as such.

Lets Just Drive > Brian Silvestro 03/03/2014 at 21:23

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Hey Brian...

With love.

Big Bubba Ray > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:26

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Very well said.

puddler > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:28

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when in doubt, wiki.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Station_w…

Gamecat235 > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:31

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It's not the FP... It's Torchinsky . =)

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:33

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Dream car, right here. In matte black with some simple mods to make one hell of a fun ride with a near 50:50 weight distribution. HNNNGGG.

too bad Cash 4 Clunkers ate most of them >_<

Lets Just Drive > puddler 03/03/2014 at 21:37

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...

Lets Just Drive > Gamecat235 03/03/2014 at 21:38

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Is there a difference?

(Trolling Torch)

puddler > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:39

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

Brian Silvestro > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:40

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Kinja doesn't accept your most likely sarcastic romance.

With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:41

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Nomad is not a wagon?

frankensti > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:41

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So my Forester.... Long roof, sharply sloping rear hatch, lowered, seats 5. Wagon?

spanfucker retire bitch > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:42

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It's all down to the size and proportions. My Mazda3 is most assuredly not a wagon - it's a hatchback. The definition has been expanded for a very long time now to cover vehicles with 4 doors.

Now the Mazda6 that you Europeans get? That's a wagon, not a hatch.

Lets Just Drive > Brian Silvestro 03/03/2014 at 21:44

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But do you? Because I only care about what you think Brian. It's important to me.

Brian Silvestro > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:46

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Well of course Lets Just Drive is Mkolabin, it's the thought that counts, and you're a part of this family.

Lets Just Drive > With-a-G is back to not having anything written after his username 03/03/2014 at 21:47

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That's tricky because when I look at a Nomad, I feel "Wagon" in my heart yet it lacks the four doors I typically ascribe to the term "Wagon" and leaves me thinking that Cadillac never should have used the term "Sport Wagon" because, if anything, that's what the Nomad is... maybe.

I think there must be some pretty clear exceptions to the rule, and that even my own requirements are not set in stone.

Having said all that, I'm really talking more about modern cars yet you bring up an excellent point.

Lets Just Drive > frankensti 03/03/2014 at 21:48

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To my mind? It's an also-wagon.

Lets Just Drive > Brian Silvestro 03/03/2014 at 21:50

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I feel like we should have a really angry hug right now, or be forced by an adult to shake hands. Then someone says, "Why don't you guys go play with your Hot Wheels" and an hour later we're best friends and we don't even remember feuding.

frankensti > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:50

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Thats what I thought. Its a confusing car - insured as an SUV, based on the Impreza chassis and easily modified with performance parts. Best of all worlds:)

Brian Silvestro > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 21:52

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ALL THE FEELS

Lets Just Drive > frankensti 03/03/2014 at 22:03

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Hey, don't get me wrong; I happen to love Forresters, particularly when they're done just right . But even stock, they're nothing to spit at. I also like the Outback, and it was an actual wagon for a time, but there's the rub, right? One was a wagon, pure and simple, while the other was something else and appealed to a different set of wants and it is thus that I'd call it an also-wagon. It has attributes of a wagon.

samssun > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 22:36

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Am I a shooting brake?

Two doors + hatch, and can't be a "hot hatch" because of real engine + real wheel drive :-(

Lets Just Drive > samssun 03/03/2014 at 22:37

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Not unless a fastback is also a shooting brake?

Big Bubba Ray > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 03/03/2014 at 22:40

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I believe you're looking for a car along the lines of this? It's simply gorgeous.

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > Big Bubba Ray 03/03/2014 at 22:47

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*zzzzzip*

Yep. That would do it. That's a caprice, not a roadmaster, so it's not as good simply because the name isn't as awesome, but still.

Also them sidewalls. BEEFY.

The Compromiser > Lets Just Drive 03/03/2014 at 22:47

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As a general rule I've always said that 4 doors and a hatch is to be considered a 5 door hatchback ( VW). If there are more than token windows(esentially extensions of the rear door windows) after the last set of doors, its a wagon.

My Protege5 was a wagon. It was a small one I agree, but I moved 3 times with it, and the 6 feet of space from the back of the seats to the hatch was plenty of room. I made trips to ikea and brought home an entire twin bed ( mattress and full wooden frame set) inside of it. Minus the packaging mind you, but still. Ive brought home 47 inch lcd tvs with stereo systems, lawn mowers, you name it. That being said, I dont think the Mazda 3, 5 door, is a wagon. They flipped the window around and it changed the appearance and lines too much. That and fuck them because I said so, thats why..

Where were we?

Big Bubba Ray > Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To 03/03/2014 at 22:51

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Haha ya I'd rather have the Roadmaster simply because of the name, but I had this pic on hand and I thought you might like it!

Lets Just Drive > The Compromiser 03/03/2014 at 22:57

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We left off at fucking them because reasons!

And I agree, even if I don't personally feel like the Protege5 is a real wagon. That's me, my own impressions - to me it's an also-wagon, but again, just me. Not trying to start a thing. Why? Because fuck them for reasons.

JawKnee > Lets Just Drive 03/04/2014 at 07:37

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What of this, when ordering parts or even signing up for some sites my HHR is classified as a wagon.

The Compromiser > Lets Just Drive 03/04/2014 at 07:56

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Agreed. Insert Meme: Fuck All the Things!

duurtlang > spanfucker retire bitch 03/06/2014 at 06:05

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This was a honest hatchback though. Notice the rear wiper.